Monday, April 30, 2007

Structure and Steel...

Mr.Atos

Last month, I might have suggested that
The View's most parochial participant refer to the the Uniform or International Building Code to learn about the need for fire protection on structural steel. In fact, Rosie need go no further than Wikipedia to discover the depths of her insufferable ignorance and distressing pathology,

Fireproofing, a passive fire protection measure, subject to bounding, refers to the act of making materials or structures more resistant to fire, or to those materials themselves, or the act of applying such materials. Applying a bounded fireproofing system to certain structures allows these to have a fire-resistance rating. However, by no means does fireproofing allow treated items to be entirely unaffected by any fire. No conventional materials are immune to the effects of fire at a sufficient intensity and/or duration.
Today, I merely suggest to her and to Charlie Sheen and to the rest of conspiracy Hollywood, and the paranoid Left, that a picture is worth a thousand words, knitted in rebuke for anyone willing to read. And that picture appears today on frontpage news across the country,

From The Oregonian this morning, via AP... The crash occurred around 3:45 a.m. on the MacArthur Maze, a network of ramps and interchanges at the edge of downtown Oakland and about a half-mile from the Bay Bridge toll plaza. Witnesses reported flames rising up to 200 feet into the air.

Heat exceeded 2,750 degrees and caused the steel beams holding up the interchange above to buckle. Bolts holding the structure together also melted, leading to the collapse, California Department of Transportation director Will Kempton said. (emphasis added)
Imagine for a moment if the disintegrated overpass had been holding 20 more overpasses on top of it. Further imagine that the overpass had 100 decks below it. What do you think would happen to that structure if that one deck collapsed as shown? Its not too difficult to concieve, especially since we all saw it happen nearly 6 years ago.

Now, take a moment to realize how easy it was for James Mosqueda, 51, of Woodland, CA to destroy a major freeway, yesterday. Imagine again had Mr. Mosqueda ignited his rig at 5:15 pm Tuesday afternoon on that same freeway... or on I-5 at Olive in Seattle... Sunset Highway, Vista Ridge in Portland... Loop 1 at Research in Austin... anywhere along the Dan Ryan or Kennedy in Chicago... or someplace next to you and your children in traffic.

You see, while Rosie and Charlie and the majority of Democrats in this country exercise the luxury of decadent stupidity with regard to national security, real monsters probe, watch, and learn how and where to do very bad things. What's more they know that no matter what they do to inflict mass misery, the Left's first reaction will be to blame Bush!

The lesson to note here is that structural steel fails at prolonged temperatures in excess of 500 degrees fahrenheit. Political steel however, fails at the mildest application of heat, potentially taking the entire structure of civilization with it.

Which manner of steel do you posess?

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Atos,

Materials science is a science, not an art. Dispatch of qualified forensic materials scientists to examine and analyze the remnants of the bridge section would provide indisputable clarity to the cause and sequence of collapse.

There are many differences between the collapse of the bridge and the collapse of the World Trade Centers. Please note that the fire was gasoline-driven rather than kerosene-driven. Although diesel/kerosene has a greater energy density than gasoline, we all know that gasoline is far more volatile and burns hotter.

Additionally, please note from your linked photo that an upper bridge section fell onto a lower bridge section with the lower not collapsing. Also note that the support pillars did not collapse although they indicate from discoloration that they endured exposure to the fire. Also, please consider that the bridge section was probably a steel-reinforced concrete structure with far less fire resistance and dimensional stability than a predominately whole-steel support structure like the WTC skyscrapers.

Also, I’m not positive, but I would guess this isn’t the first time bridge sections of this type have collapsed.

In comparison, three WTC steel-framed skyscrapers, two hit with airplanes and one not, asymmetrically damaged, symmetrically collapsed at near-freefall speeds through paths of maximum resistance allegedly due to oxygen-starved kerosene fires when no steel-framed skyscraper had ever fallen due to fire in their 100-year history although some prior and since have experienced fires of far greater intensity and far longer duration without collapsing. Crime scene evidence was illegally hauled away and destroyed with only cursory examination by non-independent forensic investigators.

The British company Corus Construction specializes in the construction of steel-framed parking garages. As one would expect, they were responsibly and professionally interested in the performance of their parking structures if engulfed in the flames of gasoline fires. It’s not too difficult to imagine such a conflagration eventually occurring when the buildings are designed to store vehicles fueled with highly flammable gasoline.

Prior to 9/11, Corus conducted a number of experiments where they placed many temperature sensors on test structures and created controlled conflagrations to empirically determine the temperatures that components of their steel structures would experience. During the course of their experiments, they were surprised to learn that no steel member exceeded a temperature of 350 degrees Celsius. They learned that conductive heat transfer is very efficient and that paired with the convective air cooling of the structure, the structures acted like giant radiators with rapid dissipation of heat energy preventing temperatures exceeding 350C. (Corus has since, probably under great pressure, scrubbed their website.)

NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, http://wtc.nist.gov/, has been funded by Congress to conduct a non-independent and, thus, worthless investigation of the probable cause of WTC building collapses. The photo you see at the website of the huge stack of paper is no exaggeration of the volume of the reports they have generated. It is an excellent example of government baffling with huge amounts of bullshit rather than dazzling us with terse brilliance. The volume goes far to dissuade any but the most dedicated to wade in and examine what they say. I am fortunate because I read it slowly as it emerged and was able to identify the key flaw in the report. NIST Chief Metallurgist, Frank Gayle, concluded that of the structure that remained for them to examine, no temperature exceeded 350C. This conclusion is in good agreement with Corus and is a result to be expected. He doesn’t qualify his statement that he was limited in which rubble he was able to examine which, of course, would force him to admit that other, possibly more revealing forensic crime scene evidence was illegally ordered destroyed. Nevertheless, NIST concluded, in violation of their examination of available evidence, that the buildings fell due to fire. They got away with this by constructing baffling bullshit computer models that they carefully manipulated to deliver the predetermined results they desired to cover up the truth.

To me personally, the photo here, http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/disintegration.html, that shows the upper portion of the South Tower cantilevering from the rest, is the most revealing. It shows where apparent collapse begins near where the planes crashed into the building with the upper portion already falling off to the side. One would have expected that leaning portion to fall off the edge and topple on the side of the existing non-damaged trunk of the building. Instead the building began disintegrating both upward and downward so that when the dust cleared all that was left was a giant pile of rubble. Why didn’t that top portion fall to the ground lying there damaged but mostly intact? Why did the building instead, apparently, fall through the path of maximum resistance?

The WTC twin towers were state-of-the-art designs. Part of their design consideration was to survive impact by a Boeing 707 similar in size to a 767. In addition to the outer perimeter structural columns extending the length of the building, they had 47 box columns forming an inner structure at the center of each building. These box columns were very strong and were fabricated at the base of the building with steel four inches thick. With none or little serious damage to the structure of the building below the point of airplane impact, there is no reasonable explanation of why the supporting columns all simultaneously failed resulting in a symmetric collapse due to asymmetric damage at near freefall speed with the upper portions above the fire collapsing through the path of maximum resistance.

Released transcripts of firemen reported secondary explosions and firemen that reached the upper floors where the planes had crashed reported fires of limited intensity that they indicated with confidence they could knock down with a few hoses. The fires were burning weak and black. The fires were going out as most of the fuel had been consumed in the initial fireball.

Reports of secondary explosions in lower floors indicates the possibility that controlled demolition was proceeding as planned with lower building structural integrity being compromised in preparation for a controlled demolition that appeared to commence in freefall at the point of airplane impact.

My speculation and that of many others is only a speculation because crime scene evidence has been illegally destroyed and can no longer provide conclusive evidence that I’m correct. If we had the entire structural remains of the buildings we could tell with CERTAINTY why those buildings collapsed. My speculation is that the buildings were all planted with explosives. Marvin Bush was in charge of security and Zionist, Larry Silverstein, as owner, could do whatever they wanted with those buildings prior to 911. Adjacent building seven was used as the control center and they controlled the demolition of both towers from there. They could initiate the collapse on whatever floor they desired. Later, when the deed was done they blew up the command center too even though it hadn’t been hit by an airplane. It, too, collapsed at freefall speed, symmetrically through the path of maximum resistance imploding into its own footprint.

But, after saying all I’ve said, I might still be wrong. But the point is that a truly independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation should have been conducted. Especially before trusting those that have been revealed as liars, to lead us into a war that has become a $300 billion (maybe as much $3trillion+) quagmire.

I understand resistance to confronting the evidence and pursuing a real investigation for it is natural to fear results that would indicate, beyond doubt, that our government was, in fact, overthrown without our knowledge, by infiltrated forces of a foreign Zionist nation, with the interests of the United States subordinating those of Israel.

Whether you think I’m wrong or you think I’m right, whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican, whether you’re a hawk or a dove, there is no way that you can justify the failure of our Congress to legislate and override the Presidential veto of a truly independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation. Truth fears no question. http://www.ephblog.com/archives/003664.html

I assert that we have real domestic enemies within the White House, within the Congress and other top levels of various departments of the United States. Is it so tempting to simply look the other way rather than discuss or contemplate what a few dedicated men could do to force a responsible investigation into existence?

Mr.Atos said...

Yes Anon, we are talking science, not folly. So, nice replay of the conspiracy jargon. I've read it before. And while I do appreciate you replaying it here for the gracious to read for themselves, it might have been more courageous of you to provide an identity along with your opinion.

That being said, I began by asking why structural steel in buildings is required by the IBC and the UBC to have fireprotection?

Are you an engineer, or an architect? I suspect, neither based on the explanation you provided. You apparently know a great deal about this conspiracy... and nothing about buildings. Do a little research outside of the Democrat Underground and get back to me with an answer that is relevant to the question. The code is quite clear. HINT: NO building is immune from catastrophic failure. The WTC towers behaved exactly as could be expected under even the rarest circumstances. They survived long enough for near complete evacuation.

As for building 7? An excessive amount of snow can cause catastrophic failure. No building is designed for mass and instantaneous loading of 1000 tons of flaming structural debris.

None of that, I suspect, will penetrate your filter, however. The narrative you have chosen is the one that brings you comfort. I submit that the pathology you seem to posess is so intense, that you can project on others a degree of undeserved malevolence nearly inconceivable among civilized men... except perhaps by someone who is capable of the same.

So, instead of probing the Zionist threat and trying to convince me of its merit, perhaps you should inquire of yourself why you hold more contempt and hate for your brethren, than those who, while claiming credit for the attack, would gladly sever your head from your neck without batting an eye.

Anonymous said...

By conspiracy jargon, are you referring to the conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with boxcutters overpowering four flight crews with 100% success and with poor piloting skills hitting 75% of their targets? Because they hate our freedom? And they want to behead us all because mainstream Zionist-owned media showed you a doctored video while directing you what to think?

If you had read everything I provided you would have realized that I did reveal my identity. It’s so disappointing knowing that I responded to your blog but nevertheless was ignored. By the way, I tried to register as requested with the Google blog menu and got stuck in a circular repeating application. If interested, you might want to bring that to their attention. It might have something to do with the paucity of commentary at your blog.

Yes, you began by asking about structural steel and although I’m a Materials Engineer, structural steel is not my specialty although I think common sense should be adequate to understand that crime scene evidence is only destroyed by people protecting lies. However, data from Corus Construction seems to confirm that insulation is unnecessary, as the highest temperature achieved during their fire tests was 350C. The National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST, has also confirmed that the highest temperature that they can determine any WTC steel component experiencing is 350C. Admittedly, I too find it enormously fascinating that NIST Chief Metallurgist, Frank Gayle, would make such a statement when I’ve seen photos of WTC columns with obvious cutter charge markings that would necessitate temperatures far in excess of anything possible from a kerosene-fed fire. Also, the recent Windsor Hotel fire in Madrid, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html, and the Venezuela skyscraper fire, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/venezuela_fire.html seem to emphasize how much an independent fully empowered, fully funded investigation is required into what happened on 9/11.

Don’t you think you’re reaching a bit far to the point of sounding absurd when you use a snow weight analogy to explain the collapse of a steel skyscraper? It would be an interesting mathematical/physical exercise to determine the amount of snow required to cause the sudden symmetrical neat collapse into its footprint of a 47 story steel skyscraper at free-fall speed.

Please believe me, your screed has penetrated my filter and I derive no pleasure from my suspicions of government overthrow and criminal activity. If you knew or suspected your government was illegal, overthrown and in the hands of criminals, who would you despise more, those that had committed the crime or your fellow Americans that silently and seditiously condoned their overthrow with a failure to think, confront, investigate or agitate retreating into false patriotism and a phony paradigm instead? But even then, I don’t hate them. I still have hope that Americans will reveal a dormant integrity and courage to correct the wrongs inflicted upon them causing them to inflict so much wrong on others.

It's irrelevant who claims credit for the attacks. It only matters who we confirm committed the attacks after an independent, fully funded and fully empowered 9/11 investigation. Truth fears no trial or question. Truth will set us free but first it will make us miserable. Truth is the difference between being a free man and being a slave. Why do you choose the latter? Please repent

Mr.Atos said...

Pardon me Anon, but after reading your previous comment for third time, I still dont see any clear identity. Not, that it matters at this point. The nature of your sensibilities is clear enough for proper identification, since no one will read it anyway, right? So why did you bother contributing to paucity in the first place if your desire for attention is not greater than my Sandmen?

As for the legitimacy of your structural presumptions, I'll simply offer this...

p-Delta

It's enough to negate your entire hypothesis.

Further, I submit that what really matters, Sir, is who is empowered by the confusion of fact! Those who fear reality, and deny and doubt everything. Mental chaff is now the bane of human existence, where the internet attempts to make provincial geniuses out of the most sophomoric of dullards intent to clog reason with recalcitrant conjecture to proffer their delusions of wisdom. Hope don't float here. And hoping that foreign terrorists dont exist, (while dreaming that domestic one's do) and hoping that a Mr. Mosqueda wont drive his rig up next to you in traffic, just isn't enough for me and others.

As participants in Civilization, (ie. not savages) we trust our brethren first before clawing him to death in primordial irrational fear.

Yours is doubt as reason. Or is it just hate as rationalization in place of reason? You simply want it to be true and conspire to make it so. The chaff helps you dream your version of reality.

As for slavery, which of us is the slave, really? Being a slave is nothing more than being a prisoner to external whim... like your paranoia. The difference between the free man and the slave is volition. Truth has little to do with it, as your freedom here to deliver 'your' screed, can attest. You are free to believe what you choose regardless of how insane it is. You may even express it here as you have. What defines your virtue (and lack thereof) here, Sir, is the attempt to channel the concept of 'freedom' into the confines your myopic narrative. No one 'needs' your particular perversion of reality to set me free. They are by nature of their existence free to choose the content of their knowledge... to survive or fail accordingly. Like selecting between food and poison, men can chose to trust those things he knows as food... reason.

...or he can starve by doubt, starting from scratch attempting to select from your chaotic jungle, the nutrients of his survival; and beginning with his own feces.

Good luck with that.

Major Mike said...

Wow...so many conspiracies and so little time...

Well...steel doesn't have to be molten to lose its strength, and I don't think it is such a stretch to believe that the weight of the undamaged upper floors began the utlimate failure of the building.

First, the fire suppression systems on the impacted floors and the floors above would have been completely compromised by the impact of the airliners, so the combustable contents within each building coupled with the jet A fuel, would have burned unhindered, thus exacerbating the damage to the support structure of the buildings...already compromised by the impact of the airliners. My physics is a little rusty, but since momentum is conserved in a collision...it seems that each of the towers would have would have had to absorb roughly 34,389,360 kgm/s of aircraft momentum. Since very few pieces flew out the other side...most of that would have to be absorbed by the building. I am not particularly impressed by engineering calulations...Tacoma Narrows bridge comes to mind, so it wouldn't shock my History major brain to believe that the slide rule calulations regarding surviving an impact of a 707 could have been grossly in error. Bottom line, even moderately increased temperatures degrade the strength of steel over time, and when coupled with the catastrophic damage done to the building skeleton...nothing would have surprised me...including the near direct collapse of the buidling. Induced by the weakend steel and the full weight of the intact upper floors above.

One of my hockey buddies is in the building demo business, and having had detailed discussions on the process...I guess the two to three dozen workers planting evenly spaced explosives throughout the two towers would have gone completely unnoticed over the weeks it would have taken to complete...and of course...they are all either sworn to secrecy for the rest of their lives, or too scared of the black helicopters to go to the anti-governmental loons that run the MSM...a move that would grant them riches and Hollywood celebratism forever.

And lastly...the best "conspiracy" that I am familiar with involved the successful 1949 Brinks robbery...in which only seven people were involved...a "conspiracy" that fell apart a mere six years later when one of the players became disgruntled...even though his life was certainly threatened. Sorry, but to believe hundreds of people are silent about such a "wide ranging" conspiracy as the WTC collapse is not rational.

I perfer instead to believe that 19 Arab terrorists, using tactics not previously encountered, gained tactical advantage over flight crews and passengers that were in no way expecting a one way ticket to an abrupt stop. Their advantage evaporated after the passengers of United 93 gained credible information that they were not part of a "normal" hijacking, and that they would likely meet the same fate of the other 3 jets. So instead of the 3/4 success rate, I prefer to look at it as, 0 for 1 once the tactical advantage was surrendered. The terrorists relied on our previously "learned" behaviors towards hijackings, and used that to their advantage to gain success...once discovered that advantage was compromised. United 93 passengers, and cabin secuirty upgrades, have ensured that our previously "learned" behaviors have been replaced with less passive measures.

Additionally, you leave out the Pentagon impact in your conspiracy net...please fit that in for me. Certainly some demoliton expolosives there were available for analysis.

Anon...I don't always believe what I read, or what I see, but I do use the collection of what I know, what I veiw as possible, what I see for myself, and what I read to come to my own conclusions...none of which add up to conspiracy.

For an engineer your conclusions rely a lot on unproven and unequal calculations. I would have thought that your leap to conspiracy would be filled in with more facts, and less reliant on "gap" analysis. MM

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Atos and Major Mike,

P-delta! That’s it! Why didn’t you mention it earlier? It explains everything!

I was wondering why three skyscrapers with asymmetric damage fell symmetrically at near freefall speed when none ever had in the 100-year history of burning skyscrapers. P-delta!
I was wondering why crime scene evidence was illegally hauled away and destroyed. P-delta!
I was wondering why WTC owner, Larry Silverstein, in a video interview stated Building Seven was “pulled.” P-delta!
I was wondering why the 911 Commission never interviewed Silverstein or discussed the illegal removal of crime scene evidence. P-delta!
I was wondering why NIST concluded the buildings fell due to fire when they lacked evidence that any rubble component exceeded 350C. P-delta!

Thanks for clearing that up. Your last bit there is interesting and approaches some past thoughts I’ve had on the nature of truth which is an objective factual “what really happened” immune to reality which is nothing more than an agreement among humans. Truth and reality are sometimes not the same thing. I’ve known for sometime that there are those that choose their existential delusions purposefully (I guess we all do) and sometimes select a reality knowing full well it doesn’t represent the truth. Sometimes they select a reality without the benefit of delusion. It’s fascinating!

Major Mike:

Yes, steel doesn’t have to be molten to lose its strength, but again, NIST says they have no forensic evidence to indicate any structural steel exceeded 350C which is far from the 800C weakening temperature. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to say the buildings fell due to fire but they have no evidence. They don’t discuss lack of evidence because that would force them to admit the law was broken when evidence was destroyed. They’re counting on Americans going along and accepting such lies covered with baffling computer models.

You speak of conclusions I’ve made and “gap theory” but I’m the one who has admitted he might be wrong. I speculate. I have suspicions. I can guess. I’m distrustful. But I don’t have knowledge. I’ve made no conclusions except that the law was broken and that an independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation of the events of 9/11 is long overdue. Truth awaits its trial without fear but some men fear truth and its trial.

I think you might agree that you too lack knowledge that, ironically, places us in agreement that an investigation is necessary. Why would one oppose an investigation unless they feared the truth?

You shouldn’t have to believe what happened. Nobody should. We should know the truth. An investigation could reveal it to us. The greatest crime ever committed against Americans and together we are in doubt of what really happened because no responsible investigation has been conducted.

We know from the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, the USS Liberty Incident and the false charges of Iraqi WMDs that our government is capable of great lies, coverup and exploitation of lies. We know from the Manhattan Project, F117 Stealth Fighter and other projects that our government is capable of keeping secrets. We know that the near 100 year existence of the Sicilian mafia in the United States before finally learning it’s real name, Cosa Nostra, in the 1960’s shows that criminal organizations can operate secretly within the U.S.

Is it such a great leap to think that the United States, infiltrated by criminal foreign forces may have been involved in false flag criminal activity directed against the American people for the purpose of manipulating them? I hate the thought of it but if it’s true, I want to know.

As for the Pentagon, please show me the video of the plane hitting the building. Please don’t insult my intelligence that the five frames of parking lot video are all there is. Please don’t expect me to believe a 757 went through that small hole. Please don’t expect me to believe a poorly trained, incompetent, amateur pilot Hani Hanjour performed the navigation and difficult maneuver to crash into the Pentagon. Please understand my exasperation when you tell me that the same C-130 pilot that witnessed the crash of a 757 into the Pentagon is the same one that witnessed the crash of Flight 93 in Pennsylvania. Puuhleeezzz! And one of the first responders to arrive at the Pentagon, stating that he saw dead bodies also coincidentally the one awarded the construction contract to rebuild the Pentagon. Nothing strange there, duh.

An investigation is required. It must be independent, fully funded and fully empowered. The Congress must legislate it into existence and must override a most certain Presidential veto. Unfortunately, Congress will need to be forced. The good news is that the force need not be physically violent against people.

On another subject, I found your discussion of Marine philosophy about attacking into an ambush very interesting and I was thinking about it when the VT story broke. I was hoping you might expand on the subject by discussing correct strategies in modern life toward possible future shooters. I imagined a raining onslaught of flack in the form of books, laptops, cellphones, desks, etc beaning that crazy bastard and wondering if lives would have been saved. The 4 F's of animal instinct, feeding, fucking, fighting and fleeing controlled by the reptialian portions of our brain can be overpowered by our cerebral lobes. I would love insight in how to train.

Best Regards,

Neil
http://www.ephblog.com/archives/003664.html

Mr.Atos said...

Indeed...P-Delta. Its the inertial phenomenon that causes a structural cross section to buckle along its vertical axis as it begins to shift along either horizontal one. In otherwards it collapses instead of topples. Naturally you dont want to consider it seriously because it doesn't fit your narrative. Similarly, you fail to acknowledge cantenary behavior in end-restrained steel beams as a result of thermal expansion, especially composite assemblies. The properties of steel vary at any temperature, especially deflection under loading and the L-delta. And yes indeed, there are load limits for all structures. Exceed the limits beyond 20% (ponding rain, drifting snow, or flaming debris), and catastrophic failure is emminent.

But, enough of that. Perhaps a detailed investigation would illuminate additional facts as you suggest. Certainly the return would never be worth the cost in terms of dollars or division. The folly itself would be a surrender to lunacy evermore, amounting to the equivalent of publically entertaining the delusion that American planes bombed Pearl Harbor while on the eve of D-Day. What is to be gained from it? Truth you say? My guess is that if such an investigation did not confirm your belief, you would still insist on the existence of a conspiracy, and perhaps even a larger one. So what is the point, except to lend fools authority over reason.

Arthur Conan Doyle stated, through Sherlock Holmes, When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth. My guess is that you know it well. Nevertheless, as I have shown, you have failed to eliminate even the probable in an attempt to accept the most absurd possibility. P-Delta!

Believe what you wish. You are free to do so, of course. You are even free to rip this nation to shreads in pursuit of your pleasure. The choice is yours.

Time will tell which of us has selected nourishment versus poison. The soul scars, even if the body survives. In the end, it may never prove truly 'fascinating.' But, one of will always be able to sleep at night.

dueler88 said...

Anonymous:

See "Occam's Razor".

Re: relative fire resistance of concrete and steel: the structural engineers I hire always tell me that any reinforcing steel must be surrounded by a minimum of 1.5" of concrete because concrete fails at a MUCH higher temperature than steel fails.

You may also want to consider the relative masses of the objects being held up by that highway bridge vs. the WTC. that bridge's columns were already designed to support the mass of the structure above it. Luckily, engineers use a factor of safety when designing structures, in case of just such a situation. the WTC towers may have been able to survive if the airplanes had struck the structures closer to the top. the WTC was NOT designed to withstand a third of the structure falling on top of itself. Remember the concept of momentum - mass x velocity: a single story of a structure falling on the floors below it is a much different phenomenon than 50 stories of a structure falling on the floors below it.

It's clear that your inherent knowledge about materials makes your opinion that much more difficult to change. Nonetheless, I encourage you to examine the situation from a purely non-conspiratorial viewpoint, viewing the footage as an impartial scientific analyst of what would happen in that situation. Note that, as I (I'm an architect) watched the towers burn - live - I became increasingly concerned as the fires continued to burn without being extinguished. Obviously the fire suppression systems had been compromised, probably by the explosion. Passive fire-resistive construction will eventually fail. Everything in a building is potentially flammable, including steel. And steel fails, by warpage and melting, before it burns. It doesn't take a conspiracy to cleanly, simply and clearly explain exactly what happened to the WTC towers.

Bill Whittle had some interesting things to say about believers in conspiracies. You might want to check it out at
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000140.html

Mr. Whittle also references a Popular Mechanics article on debunking the 9/11 myths. It can be found at
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

Anonymous said...

Mr. Atos:

I don’t wish to believe; I want to know. You should too but it seems you want a comfortable reality instead of the truth. You want the blue pill, not the red. Your expressed certainty that any investigation would never be worth its cost in dollars or division is evidence of a misplaced arrogance. The lies and consequent wars are destroying us and bankrupting us. Only truth sets us free.

I already know who doesn’t sleep. Me. I don’t sleep well at all. I haven’t since 9/11. Rest well. Go back to sleep; everything is under control.

Dueler,

Are you talking about the Popular Mechanics propaganda penned by Benjamin Chertoff, cousin of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff? Were you aware that Michael Chertoff had dual American/Israeli citizenship? Christopher Bollyn, whom I consider the best current American journalist and who was tazed in his Chicago front yard by Zionist agents in the presence of his wife and kids wrote these two articles.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=66175

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=66176

How big can the pile of strange improbable coincidences and anomalies get before you finally admit that an independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation is required?

Sincerely,

Neil

Trickish Knave said...

Anon, so you are debunking the PM debunk solely based on kindred ties of the editor?

Weak. Very weak. You say, "WTC was NOT designed to withstand a third of the structure falling on top of itself." and I have to wonder why you would say that in rebuttal to the previous posts? I think that is the point- the metal and concrete melted and couldn't support the weight of the tower anymore, just like the overpass in Oakland.

America is once again divided and the two sides are government conspiracy against insane assholes- September 11, Kennedy assassination, etc. Take your pick. I don't know where you cut and past your posts from but it is entertaining at best, pitiful at worst.

I offer no research links from sources that support my position, no technical analysis of superstructure weaknesses because those are not my areas of expertise. I read both sides of the argument and after doing so I just can't come to the same conclusion as you did- that is was a big setup.

Perhaps when the box is opened that is sitting next to the Arc, we will know everything.

dueler88 said...

Dear Neil:

There's only so much I can do to persuade you. Again, I encourage you to look at the situation from an impartial, non-baggage-laden viewpoint. I call them as I see them, especially in this context of 9/11 with my experience as a construction professional.

Piles of strange coincidences exist everywhere, and always will. They almost never point to a conspiracy of some kind.

Here's a good question: does one's opinion of a messenger, or a messenger's seemingly biased associations, automatically negate the veracity of his/her message? Prejudice can rear its ugly head in many ways. Facts stand on their own, regardless of who is conveying them.

I find this conspiracy hypothesis to be extremely improbable, plain and simple. The logistics and coordination of such an operation would be extremely complex, with too many variables beyond the control of the Zionists and their minions to make everything work so flawlessly in execution. The human imagination is a powerful thing, however; I can imagine all kinds of semi-plausible scenarios to explain many strange coincidences. And all of them would be wrong.

Note that our disagreement should not be construed as a desire on our part to prevent you from engaging in conversation with us. You, and anybody who wishes to, may visit and express ideas here at any time. Freedom of speech is perhaps our most precious asset.

Mr.Atos said...

Truth nor bromide, nor even the worst of cliche's at that, as I said before is not the source of one's freedom. You are free to choose between fact and fiction, food and poison, life and death and call them what you wish. The choice remains yours alone, as are the consequences.

But, As I said, if there is an investigation that negates your theory, it will merely be another Zionist conspiracy, as I suppose for you they all are... Barnett 2002, Fisher 2002, Huang 2002, Yu 2005, Nacewicz 2006. 'Belief' was indeed the right choice. Do you not realize how crazy you sound? You obviously DON'T want to know the truth... not about Physics, Fire, or Geopolitics. There is no possibilty in your mind that this War has a purpose and a noble one at that. Its not possible for you to conceive that it really is not backrupting the US, and that the costs (aal the costs) are justified. Its not possible for you to consider the benefits of such an action for the future of humanity and the security of this nation. It is simply inconceivable for you to think for an instant that a decision made by this administration could be a good one. And I'm betting you doubt the Holocaust, too. And nothing will ever convince you otherwise, right? So,which of us is the proprietor of misplaced arrogance?

You DO however seem determined as evidence by your persistence to convince yourself we are all wrong. I do find that to be... well, fascinating.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I read the Popular Mechanics article when it came out in 2005 and I’ve had multiple friends hand it to me and I’ve scanned it again tonight.

This rebuttal is very interesting: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/

Why are you satisfied with a magazine article of highly questionable credibility as a substitute for a legislated independent, fully empowered and fully funded official investigation? The greatest crime ever committed against Americans and you defend the absence of a credible investigation. Bizarre.

I don’t understand why we’re in conflict. Why would you oppose an investigation if it would result in revelation of truth and a superior understanding of what really happened? Your fear of division and expense is disappointing.

Atos: I disagree with you. TRUTH is the source of FREEDOM and we are not free to the degree we accept a reality rather than a truth

Do I realize how crazy I sound? Yes, I used to believe almost everything you do now so I know both sides, both virtue and vice. 911 was Arabs, Nazis exterminated 6 million using Zyklon B cyanide, we went to the moon six times, Flight 800’s center fuel tank exploded, American flight 587 crashed at Rockaway Beach due to loss of the tail section from flying in wake turbulence but it wasn’t necessary to ground or retrofit any duplicate airplanes, JFK was killed by Oswald, MLK was killed by Ray, RFK was killed by Sirhan, Senator Paul Wellstone wasn’t assassinated, JFK jr. stalled his airplane, GWB won in 2000, GWB won in 2004, electronic voting isn’t corrupted, we need 13 aircraft carriers, WMDs exist in Iraq, Iran will nuke us if we let them, Madrid train bombings were the work of Al Qaeda, London 7/7 subway bombings were the work of Al Qaeda, the USS Cole attack was the work of Al Qaeda, Israel has a right to stolen Palestinian land, AIPAC and media Zionists don’t rule and control the USA, Bush biographer James Hatfield committed suicide, journalist Gary Webb committed suicide by shooting himself twice in the head while writing a book about 911, Hunter Thompson while writing a book about 911 committed suicide while talking to his wife on the phone, Bush rape victim Margie Schodinger committed suicide, 911 activist Michael Zebuhr was randomly murdered in Minneapolis, Tim McVeigh blew up OKC Federal Building, Branch Davidians fired first and lit the fires at Waco, the recent gel bomb scare wasn’t a hoax, American Universities aren’t giant welfare programs for overpaid underachieving PhD faculty who redundantly teach all across the nation uninspiring virtually worthless courses, the International Space Station is internationally funded and is a wonderful project.

I recommend this video about the holocaust. I’d be interested in discussing it with you.
http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

I don’t have to convince myself that you’re wrong. I already know that. I have to convince you that a Congressionally legislated independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation is necessary and that as few as 12 good men could force it into existence.

Major Mike said...

Wow, Neil you got them all. Not much else to say. In fact, I am now convinced that all of written history is a hoax, and that VDH and his ilk are just government scribes in covering up the zillion layered governmental conspiriacy, and that they are...regardless of how many participants, regardless of how much evidence would be generated in constructing such consipracies, and the mathematical improbability of keeping such conspiracies underwraps for dozens of years...simply not capable of finding one credible shred of evidence for the dozens of conspiracies you mention. What literary incompetence.

If the government could just manage everything else as well well as they manage conspiracies....this country would be a much better place...except for the space aliens. MM

Mr.Atos said...

"I don’t have to convince myself that you’re wrong. I already know that."

Thanks, Neil! I knew we'd get there. What you want isn't an investigation since you already know what happened. What you want is a spectacle... and a lynch mob.

My point demonstrated. I think we're done here.

Anonymous said...

Mike, I didn’t get them all. Did I mention the USS Liberty? The crew was lying? The Captain was lying? The Officer of the Deck was lying? Many of them are still alive. Maybe you can track them down to ask them if they think conspiracies can be maintained.

You know the Internet is a wonderful thing. It allows us to go back and revisit so many historical events that would otherwise be virtually ignored. Do you remember the Skokie, Illinois neo-Nazi marches in 1978? That was the time when the holocaust propaganda machine was first getting warmed up. Remember that guy that was dressed up like the Fuehrer in jodhpurs and swastika armband, Frank Collin? His real name was Frank Cohen. He’s a Jew. After a spell in prison for pedophilia, he’s now marketing some scam about ancient Egyptian gold found in a Wisconsin cave. (Look man, I can’t make this stuff up.)
http://judicial-inc.biz/frank_collins.htm

So Mike, your F-18 Hornet tail section falls off in wake turbulence and you and the pilot eject. Will the Marines ground other F-18s? Will they redesign the tail section? What would they do if your fuel tank exploded? Would they ground any planes? At some point you have to shake your head and admit you’ve been lied to.

What do you mean by no shred of evidence? There’s plenty of evidence. Admittedly, proof is lacking.

Literary incompetence? I run spellchecker. I think it’s grammatically correct. Are you saying that secrets are impossible? Why then the sham of security clearance classifications and freedom of information acts?

I think you’re very wrong. Conspiracies are possible and relatively easy to maintain especially if you have enormous sums of money and resources at your disposal. Edward Bernays, father of spin, author of “Propaganda” and “Engineering Consent”, is quoted, "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, is it not possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing about it?

The answer is clearly yes. The motives are debatable but I think comfort, money, fear and false patriotism are surely on the list of things that influence a man to betray his integrity. What is it that caused you to betray yours?

It may comfort you that I don’t think UFOs exist and I am confident that Elvis is dead, although, Ken Lay might still be out there.

jcrue said...

umm, how about putting all this science aside "anon" and produce someone who participated in the conspiracy of the WTC.

Surely BushCo could not have pulled this off so perfectly that even science doesn't agree with your theories.....

Anonymous said...

Produce someone who participated in the conspiracy of the WTC?

How about Professor Philip D. Zelikow, Executive Director of the 911 Commission?

Check out his Wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_D._Zelikow
I didn’t write it and I couldn’t have made it up.

I quote the article: “While at Harvard he worked with Ernest May and Richard Neustadt on the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. They observed, as Zelikow noted in his own words, that "contemporary" history is "defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public's presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to William McNeill's notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.' Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."”

In other words, if there was a Matrix, this is the guy that would write the code or direct the code written that kept you in the dark about the truth.

Surely? Surely? Are you sure? How can you be?

Major Mike said...

Neil, you actually stepped into an area where you are dead wrong.

After several engine fires in the mid-80s, caused by excessive heat due to titanium friction, the F-18s were grounded until the engine problems would be identified and corrected...it was a major setback for the early days of the program, but the right things were done nonetheless. Military aircraft are routinely grounded and independently reviewed by the Naval Safety Center. I managed to eek out 1300+ hours in the bird...they must've fixed something.

Sometimes, most times, like when my aicraft caught on fire on the way to Desert Storm, the failings boil down to simple failings...like in my case...too low a silicone content in the refueling hose.

Safety investigators, maintenance squadrons, and gun squadrons, all have access to the information accident information, and supressing, or covering up, in the military is usually a very short lived endeavor because of the number of people who have access to and input on, such events.

I don't dispute that the things you link to aren't interesting in a Ripley's Believe it or Nor sort of way, but I come to other conclusions based on my experiences and specific areas of study. Of course you are entitled to draw your own conclusions from the same evidence, but I think it is becoming obvious that you are not getting any converts here.

Regards. MM

jcrue said...

so you're saying 'anon' that you can't produce a single person who can prove demolitions were set?

how about someone who was in involved in setting the demolitions?

how about someone who supervised the setting of demolitions?

how about someone who planned the setting of demolitions?

are you trying to tell me Neo miracled his ass into WTC7 and pulled the job off without anyone knowing?

your evidence still wouldn't get you out of a parking ticket.

maybe the question should be, are you here to be taken seriously?

Trickish Knave said...

Wait, Niel used a Wikipedia article. Case closed.

So, to recap- Bush blew u p the WTC. No, wait. Planes crashed into them but the governemnt was involved somehow. Charges were set, perhaps the Jews did it?, planes were hijacked by governemnt operatives who sacrificed their own lives to kill the passengers and 300o people in the towers, plus the Pentagon, etc. It has all been covered up perfectly. We went to war in Iraq, just as Bush planned.

The government was smart enough to figure all this shit out. Without any whistleblowers!

But they couldn't plant some WMD's in Iraq to verify the claims of the CIA intellegence?

Why it is that you must try and find conspiracies to explain why bad things happen? The government destroyed the WTC towers, not a bunch of finatical asshats who have no regard for their own lives or others. Although Bin Laden claimed responibility, he is in on it too.

How deliciously ridiculous you are.